业界大咖谈“区块链”（二）

王欢似絮

路志远：资深紫砂文化学者、国内知名拍卖公司紫砂顾问

Lu Zhiyuan: Senior Culture Scholar of Red Stoneware, Consultant of Red Stoneware in a Domestic Renowned Auction company

Q：在您看来，艺术品行业中与区块链技术可产生关联的领域有哪些？

Q: In your opinion, what kinds of artworks are related to blockchain technology?

路志远：区块链技术在艺术品行业中可产生关联的领域非常广，从消费端来说是简单的艺术品真伪鉴别、流转路径等，从产业链来说应该包含艺术品的生产、保存和流通三个部分。对于艺术家来说，针对任何一个类型艺术品的数字形式，可以使用区块链来声明其所有权，或发行可编号、限量版的作品，其知识产权可以受到系统的保护。

Lu Zhiyuan: Blockchain technology is related to a wide range of artworks. From the consumer's perspective, it is the simple art identification and circulation path. From the perspective of industrial chain, it involves the production, preservation and circulation of artworks. For artists, blockchains can be used to claim the ownership, or to issue numbered, limited edition works in digital form, to protect relevant intellectual property rights.

［当代］“谷农制”黄龙山红泥相扑壶

Q:可否预测下区块链技术将会为艺术品行业带来哪些改变？

Q: Can you predict what changes will the blockchain technology bring to the art industry?

路志远：区块链技术对于艺术品行业带来的改变可能是革命性的。艺术品的真伪问题是艺术品价格和市场规模的核心问题，区块链技术可以重点突破艺术品市场上的中介信用问题，为艺术品防伪与反欺诈提供新方式，让真伪判定的过程透明化，交易过程、路径更清晰，可以使打消疑虑之后的大众参与程度更高。同时区块链技术可解决艺术品市场缺乏合适的记录保留方式和文化艺术品来源实时验证等需求，这有利于艺术品的价值认定，交易过程的增值也会趋于合理，这对于市场规模的扩大十分有利。

Lu Zhiyuan: The changes that blockchain technology brings to the art industry can be revolutionary. The authenticity of art is the core issue of art price and market size. Blockchain technology can solve the intermediary credit problem in the art market, and provide new ways to work out the anti-counterfeiting and anti-fraud issues, making the process of authenticity judgment transparent, and the transaction process clearer, thus improving public participation. At the same time, the blockchain technology can introduce the suitable record retention methods and real-time verification of cultural art sources for the art market, which is conducive to the value recognition of artworks. Additionally, it makes the value added of the trading process more reasonable, which is very beneficial for the expansion of the market size.

［清中期］杨彭年棋奁壶

Q：每年全球艺术品市场涉及真伪的交易额达60亿美元，区块链技术在解决一、二级市场交易中可以起到哪些积极的作用？

Q: Nowadays, the annual transaction amount of global art market reaches 6 billion dollars. What positive role can blockchain technology play in solving primary and secondary market transactions?

路志远：真伪问题是艺术品市场的根本问题，以前艺术品的真伪、估值基本依赖鉴定机构、鉴定师积累的信誉，不确定因素很多，信用体系从未真正建立。区块链技术的应用打破了人为的鉴定壁垒，对于彻底解决艺术品真伪问题起到了很大的作用。今后的市场交易将着重于艺术水准的评估，相对公平的市场机制将发挥更大作用，在一级市场来说这是制约，但由一级市场制约带来的信用提升更有利于二级市场的活跃。

Lu Zhiyuan: The authenticity is essential to art market. Previously, the authenticity and valuation of artworks basically depend on the credibility accumulated by the appraisal institutions and appraisers, and there are many uncertain factors, hence the credit system has never been established. The application of blockchain technology has broken the identification barrier and played a great role in completely solving the problem of authenticity. Future market transactions will focus on the assessment of artistic standards. A relatively fair market mechanism will play a greater role. For the primary market, this is a constraint, but the credit enhancement brought by the constraints of primary market is conducive to the secondary market.

Q：区块链技术的到来，会否带来艺术品电商销售利好？

Q: Will the arrival of blockchain technology improve the sales of art e-commerce?

路志远：从狭义来说，电商是利用网络实现所有商务活动业务流程的电子化，是一种不见人、不见物的沟通方式，供需两端很难建立信任，信息判断门槛奇高。区块链技术的到来，当数据库的建立、扩展达到一定量级后，将为艺术品电商迎来井喷式的快速发展。

Lu Zhiyuan: In a narrow sense, e-commerce, a way of communicating without seeing people or seeing things, is the use of Internet to realize the electronic flow of all business activities, and It is difficult to establish trust on both sides of supply and demand, meanwhile the threshold for information judgment is extremely high. With the advent of blockchain technology, when the establishment and expansion of the database reaches a certain level, the art e-commerce will have a rapid development.

赵信军生命不息

Q：国内已经有机构提出了艺术品+区块链的概念，据您了解市场反应如何？目前存在哪些问题？

Q:The concept of Art + Blockchain has already been put forward by some domestic institutes. To your knowledge, how does the market react to this concept? What are the current problems?

路志远：区块链技术显然能解决艺术品市场的痼疾，虽然持观望态度者较多，但市场对此还是颇有期待。目前国内艺术品区块链存在的问题是概念多、实施少，资本耐心不足，信心不足，投入远远不够；专业人员极其匮乏；而且因虚拟货币带来的负面影响也阻碍着区块链技术的推广。

Lu Zhiyuan: Blockchain technology can obviously solve the severe issues of the art market. Although most people hold the wait-and-see attitude, the market is quite hopeful of this concept. However, the current problems in the domestic art blockchain are that there are too many concepts, few implementations, impatient capital, insufficient confidence and investment, extremely scarce professionals; and the negative impacts of virtual currencies also hinder the promotion of blockchain technology.

王欢秋实

Q：区块链技术在艺术品行业中的应用，还有哪些是需要深入探讨与摸索的？

Q: What are the applications of blockchain technology in the art industry,and what else needs to be explored in depth?

路志远：目前区块链底层技术如云，已能满足艺术品行业的需求。若将区块链应用于艺术品行业，需要着重探索研究的有三个：一是打造便利的互联网应用，区块链依靠的是互联网与数据，信息化没有做好就无法谈及技术；二是追溯体系、方法的完善；三是数据库的建设。这是一场速度和力量的比拼，速度比完美更重要，同时打造权威的数据来源，形成良好的源头数据与挖掘的机制。

Lu Zhiyuan: At present, a great many underlying technologies of the blockchain have been able to meet the needs of the art industry. If we want to apply the blockchain in the art industry, we need to conduct the following exploration and research: the first is to create convenient Internet applications. The blockchain relies on the Internet and data, and informationization is crucial to technology; the second is the improvement of traceability systems and methods; the third is the construction of the database; this is a competition between speed and strength. Speed is more important than perfection. At the same time, we should create the authoritative source of data to form a good source data and exploring mechanism.

曲智《阿弥陀佛的极乐世界》（红唐）

曲智：唐卡绘画大师

Qu Zhi: Master of Thangka Paintings

Q：曲智先生，很荣幸可以与您就区块链与艺术品的相关问题进行探讨。区块链技术在艺术品领域里对艺术品真伪鉴别、反欺诈以及解决中间信用问题上能做出很大的贡献。举例来说，您创作一件唐卡作品后，可以通过区块链技术赋予这件作品代码，来证实这个作品是出自本人之手，以及保证这个作品所有的流通环节可靠。今天，第一个问题，如果区块链技术与唐卡艺术在未来产生了交融与结合，您是否看好其发展前景？

Q: Mr. Qu Zhi, it's a great honor to discuss with you the topics related to blockchain and artworks. Blockchain technology can make a great contribution to the authenticity of artworks, anti-fraud and intermediate credit problems in the artwork field. For instance, after creating a work of Thangka, you can use the blockchain technology to endow this work with special code to prove that it is your work and to ensure that all the circulation of the work is reliable. Here is the first question: if the blockchain technology combines with Thangka in the future, are you optimistic about its development prospects?

曲智：基于唐卡的特有创作情况，及当下收藏市场现状，我们一直想要做的就是将来能为每位画师或者每件作品，建立一套完善的追溯系统，通过这个系统可以查出任意一幅唐卡创作于什么时间，创作者是谁，以及这件唐卡作品的一些具体信息。譬如题材、尺寸，生成一个二维码，收藏家只要扫描一下就能了解到。所以我对这块是抱有期待的。

Qu Zhi: Based on the unique creation methods of Thangka and the current status of the collection market, we have always wanted to establish a complete traceability system for each painter or work. Through this system, you can check the creation time, painter and some other specific information of any works of Thangka. For example, the collector can know the theme and size of the Thangka by scanning the QR code. So, I am looking forward to this system.

Q：您提到这个追溯体系其实就是区块链技术，所以，您是看好这个追溯体系的。唐卡艺术品市场也非常需要这个体系是吗？

Q: You mentioned that this traceability system is actually based on blockchain technology, so you are optimistic about it. Does Thangka market also desperately need this system?

曲智：对的，非常需要。严格来说，今天唐卡其实没有太多人在画，虽然目前统计有将近1万多人在进行唐卡创作，但绝大多数唐卡却如同丢失了灵魂一样，没有生命力。很多作品里没有倾注感情，创作者只是机械式地批量绘制，虽然也是画唐卡，但他也许只是想将唐卡转化、产生经济创收，这样的模式导致唐卡文化丢失了原有的灵魂。

Qu Zhi: Yes, definitely. Strictly speaking, nowadays, there are actually not many people paint Thangka. Although there are nearly 10,000 people working on Thangka, a majority works of Thangka lack of souls and vitality. The creators paint Thangka in batches mechanically without emotions. Although they do draw Thangka, they may just want to use Thangka to make money. This creation mode results in that Thangka culture has lost its original soul.

唐卡是以佛教相关题材为创作主题的。作为唐卡画师，首先人品很重要，对唐卡创作要保持一颗虔诚之心，这是一种信仰。绘制一幅唐卡的过程也是一种修行。唐卡和其他艺术创作不同之处是唐卡的题材是固定的，想要创新题材不大可能，但这反而更是画师对佛祖心怀虔诚的一种表达，把自己的心静下来，才能画出唐卡的精髓。

The theme of Thangka is Buddhism. Thangka painter should first have lofty character, and he should maintain a sincere mind for Thangka creation. The painting process of Thangka is also a kind of practice. The difference between Thangka and other artistic creations is that Thangka has fixed theme. It is not possible to innovate its theme. It is actually the expression of the painter's sincerity towards the Buddha. Only by calming down your heart can you draw the essence of Thangka.

曲智《三十五佛》（黑唐）

Q：如果区块链技术进入唐卡艺术领域，就会需要艺术家们提供如他们的背景、作品创作的具体日期等相关信息，以便区块链中进行记录，并且这些信息是向市场公开的。这种情况下您认为唐卡大师们是否会介意？

Q:If the blockchain technology is applied in Thangka, artists will be required to provide information such as their background, the date of creation, and so on, which will be recorded in the blockchain and open to the market. If so, do you think the Thangka masters would mind it?

曲智：不会介意。每一位真正的唐卡艺术创作者，都不希望自己用心创作的作品被抄袭、被山寨，都希望自己用心画的作品能在市场上得到认可和流通。就像我之前说到的，我们一直试图在未来建立唐卡的溯源体系，以解决市场鱼龙混杂的问题，给唐卡艺术家一个好的市场环境，让唐卡艺术得到更好的延续与发展。

Qu Zhi: Nope, they won't mind it. Every authentic Thangka creator does not want his own works to be copied or pirated, and he hopes that his works can be recognized by and circulated in the market. As I mentioned before, we have been trying to establish the Thangka traceability system to solve the problem of uneven quality and create Thangka artists a good market environment, thus facilitating the development of Thangka.

Q：区块链技术除了有追溯的功能之外，另外还能保证很快的流通性。譬如，您创作了一幅唐卡，我们将作品纳入到征信系统上，并为作品生成一个二维码，紧接着这件唐卡作品会在互联网上进行公开售卖或拍卖。这样的销售形式您又是否接受？

Q:In addition to the traceability function, blockchain technology ensures rapid circulation. For example, if you create a work of Thangka, we will incorporate the work into the credit information system and generate a QR code for the work, and then the Thangka works will be sold or auctioned on the Internet. Do you accept this form of sales?

曲智：我不排斥这种交易形式。但是有一点我比较注意，以前唐卡也尝试过通过互联网进行销售，但图片与具体的实物总是有些差别，也许图片因为各种原因所呈现的效果并不好看，但实际观看后作品其实是很美的，就像平时说一个人拍照不上相；另外唐卡的市场定位是比较高端的，需要区别对待。

Qu Zhi: I do not reject this form of transaction. But I notice that some people have tried to sell Thangka through the Internet, but the pictures are always different from the actual objects. Maybe the pictures of the works are not good looking for various reasons. But in fact, the works are very beautiful, just like some people are not photogenic; In addition, Thangka have relatively high-end market positioning and needs to be treated differently.

Q：所以，您认为唐卡需要现场观赏、体会才会对作品的把控更精准对吗？因为我们采访其他领域的艺术家，对于这方面并没有太多顾虑。

Q: So, do you think that Thangka needs to be viewed and experienced on the spot to be more precise in controlling the work? We have interviewed artists in other fields, but they didn't show much concern about this.

曲智：唐卡不同于其他的艺术品，除了表达艺术家的灵感之外，唐卡更多要倾诉给外界的是作品的细腻。因为唐卡的精髓在于其精细的表达，绘制一幅唐卡往往需要半年、一年甚至更多的时间，创作过程非常不容易。那些画面中令人感动的小细节，创作者的用心，是现场欣赏才能最大程度感受到的。一幅唐卡的价值也才由此得到体现。如果将唐卡与互联网、区块链相结合，那么我说的这个问题，其实是很重要的，也是必须要解决的。

Qu Zhi: Unlike other works of art, Thangka, in addition to expressing the artist's inspiration, it presents the outside world its delicate details. As the essence of Thangka lies in its delicate expression, it often takes half a year, one year or more to draw a Thangka, and the creative process is not easy.The small details that move people and the creators' intentions can be experienced only through on-site appreciation. This is how Thangka reflects its values. If Thangka is integrated with the Internet and the blockchain, then the problem I am talking about is actually very important and must be resolved.

曲智《水月观音》

Q：最后一个问题，由于区块链技术是全球化的，国粹之一的唐卡通过区块链技术也加强了对外的文化交流和文化输出，作为唐卡艺术大师，您介意作品流通到国外吗？

Q: The last question: As blockchain technology is a universal technology, Thangka, one of China's national quintessence, has also strengthened its cultural exchange and cultural output through blockchain technology. As a Thangka master, do you mind if your works are introduced to other countries?

曲智：唐卡作品能够在国外流通我肯定是愿意的。你之前提到的网上销售、网上拍卖的形式，我个人很赞同，主要还是要看以怎样的运作方式推出。刚才我提出了一些在互联网上销售唐卡的劣势，但是总的来说，能为唐卡艺术的传播与发展带来好处，我是非常认同区块链这个新技术与唐卡艺术品的结合。无论是互联网销售还是当面交易流通，首先要让人们明白为什么唐卡的价格这么高，唐卡的价值体现在哪里？人们对此认可了以后，唐卡走进任何市场才会显得顺理成章。

Qu Zhi: I would like to see Thangka works able to circulate abroad. I personally agree with the online sales and online auctions that you mentioned before. What matters is the operation methods that people adopt. I have just pointed out some disadvantages of selling Thangka on the Internet, but in general, since it can bring benefits to the spread and development of Thangka, I am very much in agreement with the combination of the new blockchain technology and Thangka. Whether it is online sales or offline sales, we must first make people understand why the price of Thangka is so high. What is the value of Thangka? Only when people understand its values, it will be well-reasoned for Thangka to enter any market in the world.