吕俊杰：期待问题得到解决

吕俊杰烟雨江南

Lv Junjie: Hoping for the Problems to be Solved

主持人：很荣幸可以邀请我国当代著名紫砂大师吕俊杰先生接受专访。同时我们还邀请到了区块链技术专家王昕，首先请他简单介绍一下区块链技术。

Host: It's a great honor to invite Mr. Lv Junjie, a Chinese famous contemporary Purple Sand master, to be interviewed. At the same time, we also invite Wang Xin, an expert in blockchain technology. First, let's welcome Wang Xin to give a brief introduction to the blockchain technology.

王昕：区块链本质上是一种用来记账的技术。每一次发生的交易细节完整记录在区块链上，记录的细节会分发到所有参于区块链的人的系统里。就相当于今天甲方给乙方转了多少钱，基于此系统里的所有人都会知道，这样就能防止交易的作假行为。同时，因为每笔交易都被记录在系统里，就能追溯源头。

Wang Xin: A blockchain is essentially a technique for bookkeeping. The details of each transaction are completely recorded on the blockchain, and the recorded details will be distributed to a system where all the people are involved in the blockchain. This is as if Party A has transferred some money to Party B today and everyone in this system will know the exact amount, so as to prevent fraudulent transactions. Meanwhile, the source can be traced back because every transaction has been recorded in the system.

吕俊杰美意延年

主持人：由此可见，区块链技术就能对艺术家作品的真实性进行保证。我们研究艺术品市场，发现“盗版”“山寨”的问题屡见不鲜。请问吕先生，作为紫砂制作领域的大师，您怎么看这些问题？

Host: It can be seen from this that the blockchain technology can guarantee the authenticity of artists' works. We have studied the artwork market and found that "piracy" and "copycatting" have always been common problems. Mr. Lv, as a master in Purple Sand creation, what do you think of these problems?

吕俊杰：“盗版”“山寨”问题从20世纪80年代开始到现在屡禁不止。直到今天创作者的原创作品知识产权保护，都没有真正意义上得到改善，侵权容易维权难，维权机制不完善，令很多艺术家面对盗版选择睁一只眼闭一只眼。不只是艺术创作领域，而是各行各业对此都十分困扰。

Lv Junjie: Although "Piracy" and "copycatting" have been repeatedly prohibited since the 1980s, it still emerges continuously. Until today, the intellectual property protection of creators' original works has not been improved in a real sense. Infringement is much easier than right protection, and the protection mechanism is not perfect, making many artists choose to turn a blind eye to piracy. Not along the field of artistic creation, all walks of life have been troubled.

吕俊杰彩云追月

主持人：那当区块链技术出现之后，基本上可以解决盗版、假冒的问题吗？

Host: After the emergence of the blockchain technology, can it basically solve the problems of piracy and counterfeiting?

王昕：对的。基本上此类问题区块链是可以解决的。

Wang Xin: Yes. Basically, these kinds of problems can be solved by blockchains.

主持人：吕先生，站在艺术家的角度来看，您会“拥抱”这样的技术，并加入这样的技术变革中吗？

Host: Mr. Lv, from an artist's point of view, will you "embrace" such a technology and join in such a technological change?

吕俊杰：最近我也在为我的作品进行打假维权，还请了律师，如果这个问题通过区块链技术能得到解决，我是会支持的。我想对于艺术家来说，这是一件非常好的事情。

Lv Junjie: Recently, I have also been defending my works against piracy and counterfeiting, even entitled to a lawyer. If these problems can be solved through the blockchain technology, I will support it. I think this is a very good thing for artists.

主持人：请教王昕一个问题，如吕先生刚才所说的，针对艺术家现有的作品进行打假这件事，如果通过区块链技术的加入，是否能立刻解决？

Host: I want to ask Wang Xin a question. As Mr. Lv just said, regarding the anti-frauds for artists' existing works, if the blockchain technology is involved, can they be solved immediately?

王昕：打假这个问题，我们可以从两个层面来看：一个是实物的打假，比方说，吕先生创作了一把紫砂壶，有人伪造了这件作品；另一个是作品版权方面的打假，吕先生创作的这把紫砂壶，有人在未经过吕先生授权的情况下，使用了这件作品的照片去做一些谋利的事情。我们需要从这两个层面分别讨论。

Wang Xin: We can look at the issue of anti-frauds from two aspects: one is for the anti-frauds of real objects; for example, Mr. Lv created a dark-red enameled pottery, and someone forged the work. The other is for the antifrauds of works' copyrights; for instance, photos of this dark-red enameled pottery created by Mr. Lv were used by some people to do some profitmaking things without authorization from Mr. Lv. Therefore, we need to discuss these two aspects separately.

主持人：吕先生，您的作品有数字版权吗？

Host: Mr. Lv, is your work digitally copyrighted?

吕俊杰：目前，我每创作一个作品，都会按照传统做法，为这件作品申请一个专利。

Lv Junjie: At present, every time I create a work, I will apply for a patent for it according to the traditional practice.

主持人：申请了作品专利后，能解决作品打假的问题吗？因为您刚才也提到还是会碰到这个问题。

Host: After applying for a patent for a work, can you solve the problem of anti-frauds? Because you mentioned earlier that you will still encounter this problem.

吕俊杰：申请专利是一定会做的，但是侵权造假的事情每天都在发生。你知道的情况下，若一件件伪作都去找律师打官司，很多时候真的是力不从心，太费精力。况且还有很多时候这个侵权你是不知道的，维权更无从谈起。

Lv Junjie: It is certain to apply for a patent, but infringement and forgery happen every day. As you know, if you go to a lawyer to engage in a lawsuit for each forgery, most of the time, it's really too hard and needs too much energy. Besides, there are still many times when you don't know about the infringement, and it's even more impossible to protect your rights.

吕俊杰五环五色之冰壶

主持人:针对吕先生描述的情况，我觉得是偏重实物的打假。请问王昕，您这边对此有没有解决方案?

Host: In view of the situation described by Mr. Lv, I think he laid particular stress on anti-frauds of real objects. Excuse me, Wang Xin, do you have a solution to it?

王昕:实物打假的解决方案，可以这样处理。吕先生将创作的作品特征，这些有别于其他作品的特征记以数据形式录到区块链中，那我们就能知道吕先生作品的数字摘要，在每一次的交易流转中，区块链就能记录每次的交易记录。如果有人假冒了吕先生的作品，我们就用这两方面的记录去打假。一个是记录溯源，这个记录交易的源头必须是吕先生或者吕先生授权的机构;还有一个是提供作品的特征等，看对方提供的特征数据是否与吕先生一开始记录到区块链中的相一致。如果这两方面都能吻合的话，我们就能确定这个作品的真实性。如有一方不吻合，就能质疑对方。如两方面都不吻合，基本上就能断定对方所持作品是假冒的。

Wang Xin: The solution to anti-frauds of real objects is as follows: Mr. Lv records the characteristics of his work, which are different from those of other works, into the blockchain in the form of data, so that we can know the digital digest of Mr. Lv's work. In each transaction transfer, the blockchain can record each transaction record. If someone forge Mr. Lv's work, we will use the following two aspects of records for anti-frauds. One is the traceability of the record. The source of this recorded transaction must be Mr. Lv or an institution authorized by Mr. Lv. The other is to provide the characteristics of the work to see if the characteristic data provided by the other party is consistent with the data Mr. Lu initially recorded in the blockchain. If these two aspects can match,we can confirm the authenticity of this work. If one party does not match, the other party will be questioned. If these two aspects do not match, it can basically be concluded that the work held by the other party is fake.

主持人:从艺术家的层面，吕先生愿意将作品的艺术特征数据和交易流转记录在区块链技术上吗?就像刚才王昕讲的那样，比如紫砂壶用的是什么泥料这些类似的信息，可以公开放在区块链上吗?

Host: Mr. Lv, from an artist's point of view, are you willing to see the artistic characteristic data and transaction transfers of your works to be recorded on the blockchain? As Wang Xin just said, can similar information such as the materials of dark-red enameled pottery be publicly placed on the blockchain?

吕俊杰:对，可以的。理论上是有可行性的。

Lv Junjie: Yes, it can. In theory, it is feasible.

主持人:通过刚才与我们技术专家王昕的交流，作为艺术大师，吕先生是否愿意用区块链技术来保护您作品的知识产权?

Host: Based on the communication with our technical expert Wang Xin just now, Mr Lv, as an art master, are you willing to use blockchain technology to protect the intellectual property rights of your works?

吕俊杰:可以改善现在侵权盗版盛行的现象，我是愿意的。而且通过交谈我认为这项技术不仅可以用在紫砂方面，也能用于书画等其他艺术领域。过去没有这些先进的技术，现在科技飞速发展，能用先进科技来保护中国传统文化，同时维护艺术家的基本权益，改善市场环境，这是好事。

Lv Junjie: I am willing if it can combat the current prevalence of piracy and infringement. Besides, I think this technology can be used not only in Purple Sand but also in other artistic fields such as painting and calligraphy. There was no advanced technologies in the past. Science and technology are now developing rapidly, and it's a good thing to use advanced technologies to protect Chinese traditional culture, safeguard the basic rights and interests of artists, and improve the market environment at the same time.

吕俊杰骏程万里之风 2014年江苏和信拍卖会拍出265万元

主持人:因为区块链作为目前炙手可热的前沿科技，在未来，我们的艺术作品也会在线上或者链上销售，所以我还想向吕先生请教一下，现在我们紫砂的销售渠道是怎么样的，目前您的作品是否有通过线上售卖?

Host: Blockchains is a hot frontier technology at present and our artworks will also be sold online or on the chain in the future. So I also want to ask Mr. Lv for advice, what is our sales channel for Purple Sand now? Are your works sold online at present?

吕俊杰:我的作品每年还是通过拍卖行进行销售，在线销售目前还没有进行。

Lv Junjie: My works are still sold through auction houses every year. Online sales have not yet taken place.

主持人:我们能看到像北京故宫博物院、中国国家博物馆等机构制作的文创产品都在大力推广网上销售。紫砂这么美，又是中国传统艺术之精粹，如果把它放在网上通过数字化的处理来进行交易，您介意吗?这样对艺术品的宣传或售卖是否会降低人们对艺术美的感知力?是不是艺术品就得在线下，客户看到实物才会买单? 还是您觉得数字化地通过照片也可以售卖?

Host: We can see that cultural creative products created by institutions such as the Palace Museum in Beijing and the National Museum of China have been promoted vigorously for online sales. As Purple Sand is so beautiful and also the quintessence of Chinese traditional art, do you mind if it will be put on the Internet digitally for transactions? Will such publicity or sales of artworks reduce people's perception of artistic beauty? Do artworks have to go offline and customers will pay for them when they see the real objects? Or do you think they can also be sold digitally through photos?

吕俊杰:关于这个问题，我个人的观点是:如果是一个比较有权威性的机构将艺术家授权的作品放在网上进行销售，也未尝不可。但前提是，在所有的艺术家心目当中，这个平台必须已经是一个拥有非常良好的信誉，有专业的权威性的一个平台。如果是这样的线上销售渠道，我觉得可以。

Lv Junjie: On this issue, my personal view is that it's practicable if an authoritative organization sells the works authorized by artists on the Internet. However, the premise is that in the eyes of all artists, this platform must have already become the one with a very good reputation and professional authority. If it is such an online sales channel, I think it'sOK.