業界大咖談“區塊鏈”（二）

王歡似絮

路誌遠：資深紫砂文化學者、國內知名拍賣公司紫砂顧問

Lu Zhiyuan: Senior Culture Scholar of Red Stoneware, Consultant of Red Stoneware in a Domestic Renowned Auction company

Q：在您看來，藝術品行業中與區塊鏈技術可產生關聯的領域有哪些？

Q: In your opinion, what kinds of artworks are related to blockchain technology?

路誌遠：區塊鏈技術在藝術品行業中可產生關聯的領域非常廣，從消費端來說是簡單的藝術品真僞鑑別、流轉路徑等，從產業鏈來說應該包含藝術品的生產、保存和流通三個部分。對於藝術家來說，針對任何一個類型藝術品的數字形式，可以使用區塊鏈來聲明其所有權，或發行可編號、限量版的作品，其知識產權可以受到系統的保護。

Lu Zhiyuan: Blockchain technology is related to a wide range of artworks. From the consumer's perspective, it is the simple art identification and circulation path. From the perspective of industrial chain, it involves the production, preservation and circulation of artworks. For artists, blockchains can be used to claim the ownership, or to issue numbered, limited edition works in digital form, to protect relevant intellectual property rights.

［當代］“谷農制”黃龍山紅泥相撲壺

Q:可否預測下區塊鏈技術將會爲藝術品行業帶來哪些改變？

Q: Can you predict what changes will the blockchain technology bring to the art industry?

路誌遠：區塊鏈技術對於藝術品行業帶來的改變可能是革命性的。藝術品的真僞問題是藝術品價格和市場規模的核心問題，區塊鏈技術可以重點突破藝術品市場上的中介信用問題，爲藝術品防僞與反欺詐提供新方式，讓真僞判定的過程透明化，交易過程、路徑更清晰，可以使打消疑慮之後的大衆參與程度更高。同時區塊鏈技術可解決藝術品市場缺乏合適的記錄保留方式和文化藝術品來源實時驗證等需求，這有利於藝術品的價值認定，交易過程的增值也會趨於合理，這對於市場規模的擴大十分有利。

Lu Zhiyuan: The changes that blockchain technology brings to the art industry can be revolutionary. The authenticity of art is the core issue of art price and market size. Blockchain technology can solve the intermediary credit problem in the art market, and provide new ways to work out the anti-counterfeiting and anti-fraud issues, making the process of authenticity judgment transparent, and the transaction process clearer, thus improving public participation. At the same time, the blockchain technology can introduce the suitable record retention methods and real-time verification of cultural art sources for the art market, which is conducive to the value recognition of artworks. Additionally, it makes the value added of the trading process more reasonable, which is very beneficial for the expansion of the market size.

［清中期］楊彭年棋奩壺

Q：每年全球藝術品市場涉及真僞的交易額達60億美元，區塊鏈技術在解決一、二級市場交易中可以起到哪些積極的作用？

Q: Nowadays, the annual transaction amount of global art market reaches 6 billion dollars. What positive role can blockchain technology play in solving primary and secondary market transactions?

路誌遠：真僞問題是藝術品市場的根本問題，以前藝術品的真僞、估值基本依賴鑑定機構、鑑定師積累的信譽，不確定因素很多，信用體系從未真正建立。區塊鏈技術的應用打破了人爲的鑑定壁壘，對於徹底解決藝術品真僞問題起到了很大的作用。今後的市場交易將着重於藝術水準的評估，相對公平的市場機制將發揮更大作用，在一級市場來說這是制約，但由一級市場制約帶來的信用提升更有利於二級市場的活躍。

Lu Zhiyuan: The authenticity is essential to art market. Previously, the authenticity and valuation of artworks basically depend on the credibility accumulated by the appraisal institutions and appraisers, and there are many uncertain factors, hence the credit system has never been established. The application of blockchain technology has broken the identification barrier and played a great role in completely solving the problem of authenticity. Future market transactions will focus on the assessment of artistic standards. A relatively fair market mechanism will play a greater role. For the primary market, this is a constraint, but the credit enhancement brought by the constraints of primary market is conducive to the secondary market.

Q：區塊鏈技術的到來，會否帶來藝術品電商銷售利好？

Q: Will the arrival of blockchain technology improve the sales of art e-commerce?

路誌遠：從狹義來說，電商是利用網絡實現所有商務活動業務流程的電子化，是一種不見人、不見物的溝通方式，供需兩端很難建立信任，信息判斷門檻奇高。區塊鏈技術的到來，當數據庫的建立、擴展達到一定量級後，將爲藝術品電商迎來井噴式的快速發展。

Lu Zhiyuan: In a narrow sense, e-commerce, a way of communicating without seeing people or seeing things, is the use of Internet to realize the electronic flow of all business activities, and It is difficult to establish trust on both sides of supply and demand, meanwhile the threshold for information judgment is extremely high. With the advent of blockchain technology, when the establishment and expansion of the database reaches a certain level, the art e-commerce will have a rapid development.

趙信軍生命不息

Q：國內已經有機構提出了藝術品+區塊鏈的概念，據您瞭解市場反應如何？目前存在哪些問題？

Q:The concept of Art + Blockchain has already been put forward by some domestic institutes. To your knowledge, how does the market react to this concept? What are the current problems?

路誌遠：區塊鏈技術顯然能解決藝術品市場的痼疾，雖然持觀望態度者較多，但市場對此還是頗有期待。目前國內藝術品區塊鏈存在的問題是概念多、實施少，資本耐心不足，信心不足，投入遠遠不夠；專業人員極其匱乏；而且因虛擬貨幣帶來的負面影響也阻礙着區塊鏈技術的推廣。

Lu Zhiyuan: Blockchain technology can obviously solve the severe issues of the art market. Although most people hold the wait-and-see attitude, the market is quite hopeful of this concept. However, the current problems in the domestic art blockchain are that there are too many concepts, few implementations, impatient capital, insufficient confidence and investment, extremely scarce professionals; and the negative impacts of virtual currencies also hinder the promotion of blockchain technology.

王歡秋實

Q：區塊鏈技術在藝術品行業中的應用，還有哪些是需要深入探討與摸索的？

Q: What are the applications of blockchain technology in the art industry,and what else needs to be explored in depth?

路誌遠：目前區塊鏈底層技術如雲，已能滿足藝術品行業的需求。若將區塊鏈應用於藝術品行業，需要着重探索研究的有三個：一是打造便利的互聯網應用，區塊鏈依靠的是互聯網與數據，信息化沒有做好就無法談及技術；二是追溯體系、方法的完善；三是數據庫的建設。這是一場速度和力量的比拼，速度比完美更重要，同時打造權威的數據來源，形成良好的源頭數據與挖掘的機制。

Lu Zhiyuan: At present, a great many underlying technologies of the blockchain have been able to meet the needs of the art industry. If we want to apply the blockchain in the art industry, we need to conduct the following exploration and research: the first is to create convenient Internet applications. The blockchain relies on the Internet and data, and informationization is crucial to technology; the second is the improvement of traceability systems and methods; the third is the construction of the database; this is a competition between speed and strength. Speed is more important than perfection. At the same time, we should create the authoritative source of data to form a good source data and exploring mechanism.

曲智《阿彌陀佛的極樂世界》（紅唐）

曲智：唐卡繪畫大師

Qu Zhi: Master of Thangka Paintings

Q：曲智先生，很榮幸可以與您就區塊鏈與藝術品的相關問題進行探討。區塊鏈技術在藝術品領域裏對藝術品真僞鑑別、反欺詐以及解決中間信用問題上能做出很大的貢獻。舉例來說，您創作一件唐卡作品後，可以通過區塊鏈技術賦予這件作品代碼，來證實這個作品是出自本人之手，以及保證這個作品所有的流通環節可靠。今天，第一個問題，如果區塊鏈技術與唐卡藝術在未來產生了交融與結合，您是否看好其發展前景？

Q: Mr. Qu Zhi, it's a great honor to discuss with you the topics related to blockchain and artworks. Blockchain technology can make a great contribution to the authenticity of artworks, anti-fraud and intermediate credit problems in the artwork field. For instance, after creating a work of Thangka, you can use the blockchain technology to endow this work with special code to prove that it is your work and to ensure that all the circulation of the work is reliable. Here is the first question: if the blockchain technology combines with Thangka in the future, are you optimistic about its development prospects?

曲智：基於唐卡的特有創作情況，及當下收藏市場現狀，我們一直想要做的就是將來能爲每位畫師或者每件作品，建立一套完善的追溯系統，通過這個系統可以查出任意一幅唐卡創作於什麼時間，創作者是誰，以及這件唐卡作品的一些具體信息。譬如題材、尺寸，生成一個二維碼，收藏家只要掃描一下就能瞭解到。所以我對這塊是抱有期待的。

Qu Zhi: Based on the unique creation methods of Thangka and the current status of the collection market, we have always wanted to establish a complete traceability system for each painter or work. Through this system, you can check the creation time, painter and some other specific information of any works of Thangka. For example, the collector can know the theme and size of the Thangka by scanning the QR code. So, I am looking forward to this system.

Q：您提到這個追溯體系其實就是區塊鏈技術，所以，您是看好這個追溯體系的。唐卡藝術品市場也非常需要這個體系是嗎？

Q: You mentioned that this traceability system is actually based on blockchain technology, so you are optimistic about it. Does Thangka market also desperately need this system?

曲智：對的，非常需要。嚴格來說，今天唐卡其實沒有太多人在畫，雖然目前統計有將近1萬多人在進行唐卡創作，但絕大多數唐卡卻如同丟失了靈魂一樣，沒有生命力。很多作品裏沒有傾注感情，創作者只是機械式地批量繪製，雖然也是畫唐卡，但他也許只是想將唐卡轉化、產生經濟創收，這樣的模式導致唐卡文化丟失了原有的靈魂。

Qu Zhi: Yes, definitely. Strictly speaking, nowadays, there are actually not many people paint Thangka. Although there are nearly 10,000 people working on Thangka, a majority works of Thangka lack of souls and vitality. The creators paint Thangka in batches mechanically without emotions. Although they do draw Thangka, they may just want to use Thangka to make money. This creation mode results in that Thangka culture has lost its original soul.

唐卡是以佛教相關題材爲創作主題的。作爲唐卡畫師，首先人品很重要，對唐卡創作要保持一顆虔誠之心，這是一種信仰。繪製一幅唐卡的過程也是一種修行。唐卡和其他藝術創作不同之處是唐卡的題材是固定的，想要創新題材不大可能，但這反而更是畫師對佛祖心懷虔誠的一種表達，把自己的心靜下來，才能畫出唐卡的精髓。

The theme of Thangka is Buddhism. Thangka painter should first have lofty character, and he should maintain a sincere mind for Thangka creation. The painting process of Thangka is also a kind of practice. The difference between Thangka and other artistic creations is that Thangka has fixed theme. It is not possible to innovate its theme. It is actually the expression of the painter's sincerity towards the Buddha. Only by calming down your heart can you draw the essence of Thangka.

曲智《三十五佛》（黑唐）

Q：如果區塊鏈技術進入唐卡藝術領域，就會需要藝術家們提供如他們的背景、作品創作的具體日期等相關信息，以便區塊鏈中進行記錄，並且這些信息是向市場公開的。這種情況下您認爲唐卡大師們是否會介意？

Q:If the blockchain technology is applied in Thangka, artists will be required to provide information such as their background, the date of creation, and so on, which will be recorded in the blockchain and open to the market. If so, do you think the Thangka masters would mind it?

曲智：不會介意。每一位真正的唐卡藝術創作者，都不希望自己用心創作的作品被抄襲、被山寨，都希望自己用心畫的作品能在市場上得到認可和流通。就像我之前說到的，我們一直試圖在未來建立唐卡的溯源體系，以解決市場魚龍混雜的問題，給唐卡藝術家一個好的市場環境，讓唐卡藝術得到更好的延續與發展。

Qu Zhi: Nope, they won't mind it. Every authentic Thangka creator does not want his own works to be copied or pirated, and he hopes that his works can be recognized by and circulated in the market. As I mentioned before, we have been trying to establish the Thangka traceability system to solve the problem of uneven quality and create Thangka artists a good market environment, thus facilitating the development of Thangka.

Q：區塊鏈技術除了有追溯的功能之外，另外還能保證很快的流通性。譬如，您創作了一幅唐卡，我們將作品納入到徵信系統上，併爲作品生成一個二維碼，緊接着這件唐卡作品會在互聯網上進行公開售賣或拍賣。這樣的銷售形式您又是否接受？

Q:In addition to the traceability function, blockchain technology ensures rapid circulation. For example, if you create a work of Thangka, we will incorporate the work into the credit information system and generate a QR code for the work, and then the Thangka works will be sold or auctioned on the Internet. Do you accept this form of sales?

曲智：我不排斥這種交易形式。但是有一點我比較注意，以前唐卡也嘗試過通過互聯網進行銷售，但圖片與具體的實物總是有些差別，也許圖片因爲各種原因所呈現的效果並不好看，但實際觀看後作品其實是很美的，就像平時說一個人拍照不上相；另外唐卡的市場定位是比較高端的，需要區別對待。

Qu Zhi: I do not reject this form of transaction. But I notice that some people have tried to sell Thangka through the Internet, but the pictures are always different from the actual objects. Maybe the pictures of the works are not good looking for various reasons. But in fact, the works are very beautiful, just like some people are not photogenic; In addition, Thangka have relatively high-end market positioning and needs to be treated differently.

Q：所以，您認爲唐卡需要現場觀賞、體會纔會對作品的把控更精準對嗎？因爲我們採訪其他領域的藝術家，對於這方面並沒有太多顧慮。

Q: So, do you think that Thangka needs to be viewed and experienced on the spot to be more precise in controlling the work? We have interviewed artists in other fields, but they didn't show much concern about this.

曲智：唐卡不同於其他的藝術品，除了表達藝術家的靈感之外，唐卡更多要傾訴給外界的是作品的細膩。因爲唐卡的精髓在於其精細的表達，繪製一幅唐卡往往需要半年、一年甚至更多的時間，創作過程非常不容易。那些畫面中令人感動的小細節，創作者的用心，是現場欣賞才能最大程度感受到的。一幅唐卡的價值也才由此得到體現。如果將唐卡與互聯網、區塊鏈相結合，那麼我說的這個問題，其實是很重要的，也是必須要解決的。

Qu Zhi: Unlike other works of art, Thangka, in addition to expressing the artist's inspiration, it presents the outside world its delicate details. As the essence of Thangka lies in its delicate expression, it often takes half a year, one year or more to draw a Thangka, and the creative process is not easy.The small details that move people and the creators' intentions can be experienced only through on-site appreciation. This is how Thangka reflects its values. If Thangka is integrated with the Internet and the blockchain, then the problem I am talking about is actually very important and must be resolved.

曲智《水月觀音》

Q：最後一個問題，由於區塊鏈技術是全球化的，國粹之一的唐卡通過區塊鏈技術也加強了對外的文化交流和文化輸出，作爲唐卡藝術大師，您介意作品流通到國外嗎？

Q: The last question: As blockchain technology is a universal technology, Thangka, one of China's national quintessence, has also strengthened its cultural exchange and cultural output through blockchain technology. As a Thangka master, do you mind if your works are introduced to other countries?

曲智：唐卡作品能夠在國外流通我肯定是願意的。你之前提到的網上銷售、網上拍賣的形式，我個人很贊同，主要還是要看以怎樣的運作方式推出。剛纔我提出了一些在互聯網上銷售唐卡的劣勢，但是總的來說，能爲唐卡藝術的傳播與發展帶來好處，我是非常認同區塊鏈這個新技術與唐卡藝術品的結合。無論是互聯網銷售還是當面交易流通，首先要讓人們明白爲什麼唐卡的價格這麼高，唐卡的價值體現在哪裏？人們對此認可了以後，唐卡走進任何市場纔會顯得順理成章。

Qu Zhi: I would like to see Thangka works able to circulate abroad. I personally agree with the online sales and online auctions that you mentioned before. What matters is the operation methods that people adopt. I have just pointed out some disadvantages of selling Thangka on the Internet, but in general, since it can bring benefits to the spread and development of Thangka, I am very much in agreement with the combination of the new blockchain technology and Thangka. Whether it is online sales or offline sales, we must first make people understand why the price of Thangka is so high. What is the value of Thangka? Only when people understand its values, it will be well-reasoned for Thangka to enter any market in the world.